Ep. 214 Leadership coaching with Penny Terndrup

Penny Terndrup

In this week’s episode, Anna speaks to Penny Terndrup in the latest in the Escaping the 9 to 5 series.

Escaping the 9 to 5 with Penny Terndrup

After studying music and languages, Penny trained and qualified as a solicitor in the City and worked for several years as a corporate lawyer. Moving to recruitment, she worked with partners and teams moving between law firms, later joining a global firm as a partner, adding in-house legal teams to her practice. In 2009, she set off on her own, continuing to work with some wonderful search clients, while spending more and more time coaching.

After studying music and languages, Penny trained and qualified as a solicitor in the City and worked for several years as a corporate lawyer. Moving to recruitment, she worked with partners and teams moving between law firms, later joining a global firm as a partner, adding in-house legal teams to her practice. In 2009, she set off on her own, continuing to work with some wonderful search clients, while spending more and more time coaching.

Connect with Penny on her website.

*Resources mentioned during the episode*

The Outsiders Business Academy – A self-paced course for you to work through in your own time, to learn – and implement – the foundations of building a profitable business that lets you escape the 9 to 5. onestepoutside.com/course

Leadership Coaching

Anna Lundberg  

Hello, and welcome back to the podcast this month for the Escaping the 9 to 5 series. I am here with Penny Terndrup. And I’ll dive straight in as I always do, and ask you Penny to introduce yourself better than I possibly could and tell us what were you doing before? And what are you doing now?

 

Penny Terndrup  

Okay. So Penny. And before that’s an interesting starting point, what before what? So I guess my big transition was from lawyer to person that liked working with people. And that’s not the lawyers don’t. But I think that was my Waterloo in terms of transition. And I was a solicitor in the city for probably about five or six years, and realized over a fairly long time that that was not for me. And I stopped doing it. And now I’m, I was a search agent, recruiter at center. And now I’ve done a more gentle transition into coaching, and leadership development.

 

Anna Lundberg  

You’ve already picked up on an interesting nuance. And the point of before what and I think that’s what I’ve realized over my years of the transition, I suppose that it’s not just one moment it’s, it’s several. And when I quit my job in 2013, I thought that was it. Tada, I’ve done my big, brave thing, and I’m going to live my best life. And it was just the very first step. But I suppose diving into that Waterloo moment, then you’ve made it sound very simple. How did you realize that it wasn’t for you? And how did you then choose recruiting as a first?

 

Penny Terndrup  

So I think I think it’s just sort of crept over me over a period of time. I moved once, I think that often happens, I think people feel it’s situational rather than contextual. Maybe or. And so I trained and I stayed with the firm. I was pretty happy if anyone’s listening. But it became obvious that what I was doing wasn’t making me feel happy. And so I went to a recruiter, had a lovely chat, and they sent me out to meet some people and I took a job. And I was full of hope, and it was all going to be different, my life be great. And again, you know, the people around me were nice, and it was okay. But it just didn’t make my heart sing. I love being assisted. And I think I started to realize that there was something wrong with what I was doing, rather than where I was doing it. And somebody recommended that age old Bible called What kind of is my parachute? that thick? Yeah, you know, and standing on the tube, commuting, reading this thing and thinking, okay, there was this other dimension that I could start exploring. Yeah. And so it sped up towards the end. And I remember being at work on a New Year’s Eve, in the evening, and I should have been in Suffolk with half a bottle of wine inside me and I wasn’t. Yeah, this is it. I think this is my moment, went home on Christmas and had had a break. And came back and said, Nope, I think I’m off.

 

Anna Lundberg  

And you mentioned happiness there and your heart singing. Was that something that you expected going into the career as a lawyer? Or did you not even considered that as a young graduate starting a career?

 

Penny Terndrup  

Yeah. And it’s, it’s a phrase, it’s tricky to use, isn’t it? I mean, insert own phrase here. But no, it wasn’t even on the agenda. It was the thing you did next. Okay, you, you do school, you do uni, you do get a job. And if you’ve taken a sort of a track that yeah, there are tracks, which leads you to the next place, and I’d reached next place. And I just couldn’t quite imagine carrying on there. It’s all about what next really long time. And then you get there. And it’s well, so I think it’s important. I wasn’t absolutely miserable. It just wasn’t. It felt like there was this other other possible. There was there was more that was possible that I hadn’t been aware of, because I’m waiting for the next thing all the time. Yeah, that sort of existential crisis type.

 

Anna Lundberg  

Yeah, and yet again, there was no massive trigger. Right. It was I guess it’s sort of an accumulation as you said, and like me, too. I didn’t hate my job either. So it’s it’s harder To have the courage to break away from something that’s kind of working. Yeah. And you know, being a lawyer is pretty much the epitome of success in our society, still law, medicine, those are, you know, very admirable, impressive. So. And so we’ve already danced around that a little bit. And you know, my whole topic and the name of the podcast is reimagining success. So how has your definition of success, if you’ve ever thought about it that way, perhaps not evolved over these different transitions?

 

Penny Terndrup  

I love the way you frame it. And I think there are two parts to what we’re going to say I think that’s what happened for me. And I think maybe what I’m seeing out there as well is changed. Again, I think COVID had a massive effect. No surprise there. But I think for me, yeah, I became aware of this sort of other room where the door opened, and there was this other room of, oh, gosh, I could actually be happy as well. And I could purpose to be more meaning in it. And for a while, I think I’d seen I’ve gone through that process of moving jobs. And I’d understood that the recruiter I worked with who was lovely, I kind of saw what she got out of it, personally, and she saw this person happier. And, and that seemed like a really good thing. And so I thought, I’ll do that then. And had a really great career, I really enjoyed my recruiting. And, and again, it’s looking for the next thing in that. So you build a business and you, you get better at it. And, and then for me, the next the next thing search, which seems like a very grown up thing to do, and it’s brilliant. But then, I guess for me, I think life is transition animals, you know, you know, the books are like the the theory is the fact that we’re going to have five careers before we die. And we’re going to work longer. And I think, now that people younger people coming through, we’ll just have a career of transition. So we’ll start maybe to think about things in a different way to how perhaps we older than you grew up thinking you have a career and then you, you maybe have a non exec career at the end, but then you, then you just doesn’t feel like that anymore. And I guess for me, having done that big jump, which felt very scary, that sort of liminal space, which I can talk to in a minute, but that’s sort of scary, but I survived, and jumped off the ledge, and, you know, everything was okay. And then so since that into into search and recruitment, I found through a bit of a circuitous route, which involved quite a lot of psychotherapy, and some training there. phone coaching. So my transition into coaching was gradual, much more gradual, it was much more about feeling of possibilities and exploring and learning. I think the other thing that kicks in perhaps, as you become aware of this possibilities, these possibilities is it’s gaining not necessarily knowledge, but maybe self knowledge. And growing, oh, I think I might start on the cliches. So, so that transition into coaching, and I’ve been a coach full time and love it, and I don’t know what’s next. We’re doing a lot more work with teams. And that’s, that stretches me. And, and it’s less scary. The fact that having survived and knowing that, that perhaps my career is a series of undulating transitions. It’s okay. But yeah, what’s coming up on the inside for everyone, but for those coming to the world that difference?

 

Anna Lundberg  

Yeah, it’s so different, isn’t it? Because I always thought that to that if your definition of success, as you say, I mean, certainly my parents generation and young and even us, to be honest, that’s what I expected. As a child, I suppose we think we want to be a fireman or a nurse or doctrinaire in an astronaut. That’s it. You’ve got the very black and white pockets. And, of course, what is the statistic 20% of jobs that exist today won’t equate 2% Probably, I don’t know what the numbers are. And you know, most jobs don’t exist, yes, and so on. And so you can’t possibly plan for that. But I imagine as well that because once you’ve made that transition once, as you say you get more comfortable and I’ve taken that leap once I can take the leap again, I think that’s quite empowering. But you did mention that it was quite scary. So You know, how did you overcome those fears? I guess, in particular in the first leap?

 

Penny Terndrup  

Yeah, I think the first one was a leap. And the parachute book does talk about, you know, jumping off, and there’ll be a ledge, and you can but there’s a jump. I think since then it hasn’t been a leap at all. It’s absolutely a process and and how did I do it? I think I was lucky that I have supported people around me that kind of, and I think the pressure builds to a point where you’re just not happy, or it’s not okay. And there’s something knocking at you. And it’s, it’s easier to do something scary than to not do something. And with a second part, that sort of undulating transition, I think is you enter different stages of life, which haven’t explicitly answered your question around what success looks like. And that changes. And yeah, my mom was really happy when I was a lawyer, and then it was not. And then as life continues, and I had kids, and success for me, is much more holistic around being able to live my life. Well. Have my kids be okay, and get back to my community. And I don’t know the stuff that that makes you a whole person. Perhaps. That’s that’s increasingly I think, my definition for me. Not. It’s not right for everyone. Yeah, we get.

 

Anna Lundberg  

But I also lost my track a little bit, because he said, so many things that I want to jump on. So it’s always hard to both listen. And I noticed this, I’ve lost that. So I stayed present with you. And now we’re at so we talked about the scary leap. And that initially, but as you say, after a while, it’s a bit of experimenting, and it’s adjusting the sails, I suppose as you continue navigating, and you mentioned obviously becoming a mother. That’s another shift. And one thing I guess that came a bit earlier, when you talked again, about you know, the lawyer and your mother is proud and so would that identity has that been something, one of the metaphors that I’m sure you’ve come across, it was like life changing, but at least eye opening for me when I came across it many years ago, this butterfly, the caterpillar that goes into the cocoon, and you think it just has a little sleep, and then it emerges as a butterfly. But the apparent biological reality, which I hope is true, but it’s an interesting myth, at least, if it’s not true, it breaks down into a really gooey, painful process of protein soup, and then starts the slow process of piecing itself back together into a butterfly, which I think is, is you know, not to not to totally inaccurate way of thinking about it. For some of us, you have a particular identity, who have built a whole identity on a particular career, perhaps especially things like lawyer and so on. And we have that respect. And even if we don’t think that there’s prestige and the status and zone of that important the rest even for me, I came out of a big company, and suddenly I was nothing, nobody is quite painful. It takes time to, you know, find your feet and develop a new identity. So that idea of identity coming up for you is that no,

 

Penny Terndrup  

It really rings lots of bells. And so yeah, I can’t get past the pupa thing. And so that takes me to So another interesting passion, that’s a no belief, whatever. So I did a lot of study around psychosynthesis, which is a psychology which is transpersonal psychology and has a really helpful model, which I use it all the time in my coaching, which is sub personalities. And the model would say that we all have different parts of ourselves, I don’t rise to anyone and we probably live through particular identities a lot of the time. And I think in transition or in career planning or identity, I think we often have sort of a desired identity so we might be chasing something or that would be success. And then we perhaps have the sort of the knocking part, the part that’s that’s wanting to be to become the butterfly. And we haven’t we don’t know what that is. We just don’t know what it looks like it. So this the Sookie bits I think is it can be scary because of control that is adults and we’re taught to be to know what we’re doing and to do and actually to think about it the other way around and think well maybe the right thing to do right now. Is to not do is to to accept that this is this This period of experimentation perhaps, and that not doing something isn’t isn’t bad and it’s it is that liminal place that gap between and we love that we’re rebuilding that identity and trying things on and with all the practicalities that paying the bills, perhaps might mean for a lot of people. I think the research the theory is, the more you can experiment in working on a new identity, identity the more likely that is to be successful. Yeah, so so that experimentation period, maybe like to call it

 

Anna Lundberg  

I like experimentation exploration for me is so key they’re not doing is the hardest thing I think. And I keep experiencing that now. Just Just feel just don’t do if I’ve got to do something. It’s quite strong and strong driving me but but the learning and growing that you talk about, that’s a huge value. For me, I don’t think it’s cliche at all. It’s even what I built my I think coaching framework on back in the day because of the growth outside of the comfort zone. And it seems so obvious to us now, perhaps. But I think it’s so easy to allow that comfort zone to shrink around us. And even now, I feel it happening again, you know, in a different stage of my life. And I think the fear is huge. And one colleague once told me, Anna, like 99% of people are never going to quit their job. And I found that quite interesting. And the reason why I’m now partly because I’ve been out of that world for 10 years now too. And I’m much more interested in the ongoing process of sustaining the escape as it were not just that initial moment, these undulations that you talked about, and the bigger concept of redefining success, but it is it is scary. And it’s an interesting, it’s an interesting reflection for me to understand, because so many people in my community will never do it, or will take four or five years to even book a court, and then they’ll decide not to do it. And you know, my role is not to persuade anyone, so I’m only there for the people who are ready. But so many people are not ready. But that tipping point that you mentioned is definitely something I’ve heard before, when it gets less comfortable to stay where you are. Now I’m actually easier almost to do the scary thing, I think that’s quite a good depiction of that moment when you have to take action because it’s easier to do than not

 

Penny Terndrup  

  1. And maybe that that happens because because of I don’t want to call it denial or not doing anything but but I think having gone through that tipping point moment, in the past, I’m more open to seeing it as a process. And, and that process being it doesn’t have to be all or nothing, it’d be very good at binary, aren’t we? Yeah, we are so good at that as a species. And I guess that that sort of just reading something, you know, what would I what I like to be doing what what’s wrong with this picture? What trying things on and and in a work context it’s, it’s hard if you’ve got to spend all your time doing something you’re not particularly fulfilled by but maybe there might be another way to experiment. Talk about sort of interest groups, for example. So who do you surround yourself with? And I guess it’s just taking that information and that osmosis of what might come into your pupil into your into your identity over time that maybe might take the pressure off that moment for scary stuff.

 

Anna Lundberg  

Yeah, and I definitely did that I did writing courses and watching things and conferences and it took a long time for that to become anything concrete. I didn’t sit at my desk thinking okay, what’s the exact business going to be an exactly although it will be it That’s That’s great work to do. And it’s not necessarily going to look like that in practice. But I guess more tangibly, you said you are working full time in your catering business. So what does that look like? You mentioned you’re working Did you say with groups individuals? What did that look like for you today?

 

Penny Terndrup  

Hey. And so this is now and who knows next week? Yes. So I love I just love working with I just love working with people. And and that tends to be one on one tends to be within organizations and and you have a sort of sense of the system of the organization and how that fits in and how. So. So the system as a whole fascinates me. And working on organizationally and with individuals is not mutually exclusive. And then the extension of working with individuals in an organization is to work with teams. And yeah, that’s, I’m doing less of that than I like to be called. I think that’s something that is growing, I think that the next iteration of, of coaching will be the next layer of the onion, perhaps it’s not. And that that’s becoming busier and more, more the norm. But I’m, I’m hopeful because I, I guess I know, a lot of coaches, and so I know you do, and I work with a training organization that trains coaches, and I think the, the vast, huge majority of people that I know that come into this field, just want to make things better. It’s and to do that we’re not you know, we’re not an island. So yeah, I’m aware of, of who might be watching us talking, and trying to be relevant there. But I guess to not see yourself as as alone. Even to me,

 

Anna Lundberg  

and in terms of collaborating with other coaches, in terms of your organizations and teams, what do you mean more concretely?

 

Penny Terndrup  

Okay. Yeah, I’ll try and make more sense, I think. So an individual who is feeling that they’re not in the right place. It’s not they’re not doing their life’s work right now. It’s very easy to feel isolated and alone. And I just I’d encourage them to find other people to talk to not a coach, find yourself. Find yourself places to belong, that aren’t isolating. Yeah,

 

Anna Lundberg  

I do love that. I went to I think my very first event, and I’m not sure. It’s so hard to remember the the order of things now the chronology, but I went to an evening event with a coach, funnily enough, no idea who the coach was what they said. But the power of the session was, it was the first time I was in a room with 1015 other people who were in successful corporate jobs, and weren’t happy, and were afraid of leaving, but they wanted to, and that was just oh, I’m not, as he said. So that really resonates for me, and I think, I guess there’s all this talk now of quiet, quitting and disengaging and working from home because of pandemic, although it’s a great thing, it leads to potentially isolation, and, and so on. So I think that’s a really important point to you don’t have to work with a coach right away, but to seek out groups where there an interest or you might meet people who are in a similar situation, and you can see, perhaps those possibilities that you talked about early on, which is so so important,

 

Penny Terndrup  

which which I’ve moved away completely from team coaching. But But But COVID has had a massive effect on on on the network on individual network both at work. And organizationally, I think, I think in within our organization, the the connection points are atrophied, no surprise there, then we’ll do that. However great. It is, however, the benefits are, it means that the connection that that people feel with both the organization and their co workers and is going to be less, but I think individually, I think there’s some research and I think was Microsoft Research, some wonderful stat 15 20% of individual nets, networks have shrunk over the period of endemic and aren’t being replaced in the same way. So So, so, in terms of identity, I think that that sort of the potential for feeling more isolated is then and also for doing something about it. So the network to support you. In in changing is often is now shrinking. So just having you surrounded yourself with bed at work or or outside

 

Anna Lundberg  

I’m running. And I’ve been working with individuals pretty much now. So I do some corporate workshops, but I’m feeling a need to address the issue from the other side. Because these these individuals who want more freedom, flexibility and fulfillment that the other side of the story, they don’t necessarily want to quit their jobs, they want to find a place. And as you said, it’s the team, quite practical things have policies and mindsets around someone not being in the office and meeting times, and so on emails and everything expectations. And then there’s the broader organization in terms of policies and culture and senior leadership. So it all begins to kind of the pieces of the puzzle do fit together, both from my perspective as then an expert coming in, hopefully, but also, as you say, for the individual in that structure. There’s so many things you can do yourself in terms of boundaries and work on your values and everything. But if you’re in a place that isn’t then conducive to that, or if you’re not getting the support or making those connections, that can be really tricky.

 

Penny Terndrup  

And organizations are quite often quite good at throwing a coach at someone, but not looking at how everything fits together. Or not necessarily getting elephants out into the room. Yes. having real conversations that can be quite challenging. So

 

Anna Lundberg  

yeah, throwing a coach or a well being initiative or something like that sort of a tick box exercise. Yeah. Hopefully, again, the pandemic and things have led us to sort of force certainly some organization to confront these things. And I think senior leaders are getting involved with HR and so on. So things aren’t removed. And I suppose, in terms of visibility, we talked about a little bit and an identity again, more of an external identity, how have you made that transition in terms of putting yourself out there, not as a lawyer recruiter, but hey, this is me, I’m a coach and I can help you do the things these things do you do marketing is a word of mouth.

 

Penny Terndrup  

I bow to your wonderfulness in, I think you have a great personal brand and do really great stuff. I would say that everything I do is relationship based. And that’s yeah, it’s frustrating. When I see great stuff happening around me, I would that would be the next thing I’d learned actually, sort of, is there as a stretch point.

 

Anna Lundberg  

In terms of more active marketing, you mean greater? Yeah.

 

Penny Terndrup  

So my identity, my self identity would probably be, I’ve still got a bit of lawyer knocking around here, which is, you know, not so you shouldn’t really be chatting about yourself too much, because that’s not really done. So. And that’s very much. I mean, I don’t think that’s true. By the way. I think that’s absurd. But I think for me, there’s there’s quite a lot of that still. But that’s okay. Because the way I’ve worked and the way it will work for other people, perhaps is just do a good job. And I Yeah. Like as a way of looking after you, I think, got us. Very high there. Yeah, word most talks to people. Be interested.

 

Anna Lundberg  

Yeah. But that’s about Susan and every aspects would be interested in it’s about relationships. And that’s a viable and word of mouth is amazing. And the fact that you’re doing a great job and people to recommend to you is, I should lie down in order to you. So the fact that he can have a full business based on that is incredible. What a challenge. And it’s something I have myself to this idea of, we can’t shout out about ourselves. And I hope I don’t come across that way. No, clients want to be an expert. We want to be well known, respected. Thought Leaders. We want to be leading in the industry in that way. And yeah, it’s we’ve been taught Yeah, we mustn’t say that. We’re great. And you know, unfortunate, I think, particularly women, and in the north of Europe and say, my Swedish, everyone’s equal but also English, you certainly can’t them. So often, all these things is quite challenging in the online space. And I both admire and resent people who are better than me and said that as well. So it’s, you know, it’s a lack of comfort. But also, as you say, it’s interesting to come to terms with that. And I think you have so much value. It’s also about relationships at the end of the day, and it’s about sharing what you think and making a contribution, putting out there. I’m pushing my boundaries a little bit by voicing some more personal things on LinkedIn, for example, and it’s hugely uncomfortable, and I’m getting a very positive response. But also, of course, if you stick your neck out a little bit, you’re going to get more, more negativity as well. And it’s sort of hardening the skin a little bit to that. I think, when you become more visible by definition, you know, more people will sort of assess what you’re doing, I suppose so it challenges you but then that’s, that’s exciting to definitely and the scary and terrifying way. Isn’t it? Scary, yes. Also, yes. Because I can sit here in my comfort zone behind my computer doing my videos and things and stay in my little vanilla place or I can begin to peek out and try to make those connections and say something perhaps a bit more worthwhile. And it’s, it’s a process and everything I say won’t be clever or relevant or whatever, basically, it’s a contribution, and each little piece will add up to something more.

 

Penny Terndrup  

But it’s just like, as we started with, we talked about before, when, when we’re at what point? So I’d say when does the relationship start? Because I think you build relationship from your screen. Immediately, I think that relationship building has is something that was impossible perhaps when I when my, my work self was formed. I know, I know about this about this thing me. And, and that’s okay. But it’s yeah, thank you. It’s really interesting.

 

Anna Lundberg  

That we can Yeah, we can take that offline, as they say, but it’s because so many people say, you know, I don’t like marketing, you know, you’re so lucky, it comes naturally to you. And yes, I did come from a marketing background. But marketing yourself is a very different thing to marketing, this beautiful perfume product over here, you know, with celebrity models, and so forth. It’s quite, it’s been quite a journey as well. So and of course, selling is a different thing entirely to you. But as you said, the relationships, I mean, my favorite thing is if someone comes on the phone with me, and already knows they want to work with me, because they’ve gotten to my workshops, they’ve listened to the podcast, they get what I’m about. And then it’s just about having a bit of conversation, making sure I can help them, what’s the right format, or whatever. And that’s an easy one, I can’t do the hard sale, and I you know, the kind of cold to whatever it is, and you know, that kind of thing doesn’t work for me. So it is relationships. And I think that’s what coaching is, in a way. That’s what marketing and

 

Penny Terndrup  

understanding is teenager. Yeah, it’s a reframe. You’ve just reframed it in a way that that makes it a different thing. And just as we talked about, you know, the legend, and the undulation. Yeah, just exploring what it really means. Yeah, so that’s, that’s maybe my learning edge. But I think that over the over the years, so I’ve been self employed for, what, 20 years? And yeah, and I don’t know. I think that if you if you stop if the minute you think you know. So, so that vulnerability, that sort of ability to question yourself, and do that around people. For me, I think that that is, that’s possibly my work. That’s my work identity. That’s what people know me and work with me realize. I suspect I’ve started to go down a wormhole here, I might need you to take me out. But

 

Anna Lundberg  

well, I was just feeling again, that undulation that’s my favorite word of the of the episode. Because I think I love learning. And it’s so easy within in terms of business coaching, and that kind of air in particular, and even coaching in general, I don’t know how involved you are with seeing what other people are doing in the online space. But there’s so much you’ve got to do this, you’ve got to do that. And you know, there’s this business model, and that course, and webinar, and so on. And there’s a lot of valuable information out there for free, you’re paid individual group, etc. And there’s a again, there’s that phase of learning and being open and listening. But there also has to be a season for actually, I’ve listened to whatever he has to say, now I’m going to trust myself, and this is what I’m going to do. In my case, I’m going to launch this program or write this book. And then I come up for air again and look around question learn, and then I go back, because otherwise, it’s that imposter syndrome. It’s constantly Oh, my goodness, he’s doing this amazing thing. And I could never do that. And there’s no point in even trying to write a book because there are so many books out, you know, then then you just get stuck in a wormhole too. So I think there’s an element of learn and then come back and focus and then open up again, and question and then come back again.

 

Penny Terndrup  

There was so we’re talking October 2022. It’s a recent Guardian article that talks about impostor syndrome, and well, it was sort of an extension was talking a lot about mental health and health rather than illness and and we’ve all got impostor syndrome. I think, I think the the minority that don’t believe they do, maybe have different issues, but everyone questions themselves and worries about doing the right thing or being the right thing. And it’s getting comfortable with that.

 

Anna Lundberg  

And in a way, the fact that you have it, I think, is a good thing because it means you’ll never get complacent. And it means you know that you’re asking the right questions, as long as it doesn’t become debilitating and stop you from making contribution. And just again, coming back to the reframe for you, there’s a kind of help but want to push you out there into the world. If you want to help people, which you do, and as we do, as coaches, the way we do that is by reaching more people. And it’s not to say that you have to grow your business, and you don’t have to have a YouTube following them. 100,000 people and I certainly don’t. But you know, if you love what you do, and if you want to help more people, that actually having a bit more of a public platform is the way to do that. So again, it’s not about you know, check me out. I’m amazing. It’s just, this is how I can help you and allowing you to speak to more people. And when it comes to I guess the practicalities just to sort of finish up I suppose I love this topic of what I call work life integration of how you make this work for you. I know you’re at a different life stage or slightly older children I do. So I imagine it looks a bit different to you. But you know, are you working full time? Have you designed? You know, this is exactly what I want to do? And you’re very strict with that. Are you very flexible? What does your kind of routine look like I suppose

 

Penny Terndrup  

routine, that’s a good word if you haven’t routine, no. So for those Myers Briggs strange around, I’m a, I’m an absolute big picture, don’t really do structure, bit of a pressure prompted kind of person. And that, that means that the chaos that is my life is very comfortable for me. So I work. What kind of work is me? So I’m doing something I love. And I think the thing that comes back all the time is if you if you do if you if you have a job that you love, you will never work a day in your life. And it does feel like that. So yeah, I get up, I get the kids, they’re teenagers, so they don’t get up and get them out of the house, do whatever needs to be done. And, and then I do the work that I need to do. And I have the meetings that I need to have. And I get the shopping I need to get. And it’s it’s all one life. And that doesn’t work for everybody. But yeah, I I won’t share my age, I believe at the gas, but it feels like I’ve built here. And it yeah, it works. It’s a careful juggling plates spinning constantly. But I guess that’s

 

Penny Terndrup  

being self employed or being the master of one’s own destiny isn’t for everybody. But if this is the way somebody is thinking, you get to design your day. Not everyone has to know about it either. But and if you can love what you’re doing all the time, that’s the real gift. The really lucky. Oh, my goodness, I

 

Anna Lundberg  

love that. And you’re right, it’s maybe not for everybody. And I imagine that the slightly younger you coming out of university working as a lawyer probably wasn’t so flexible and go with your energy because I picture at least law being very, very rigid in terms of hours. And so I think the danger of the I love my work. So I can work any anytime anywhere, is that it blurs a little bit too much. And especially maybe for some of us. And maybe it depends on the life stage. I know my partner will first on holiday together five, six years ago, got really angry with me for lying there, on the sun bed by the pool with my notebook, because for me that was like envisioning, and brainstorming. And that’s magic for me. And of course with the work we do the questions I’m asking you today, I’m fascinated by personally and I could talk to someone about that at a dinner party, you know, at the playground or for work and I love it and it’s just a piece of the question. So I’m very lucky as well to design the business to found a business that is what I love. But the danger of course is yes, if you then allow yourself to and when I first started I was you know working in bed working in the kitchen and so it was now partly through my partner’s work and then having the children there are certain days I can work and then it’s a bit more regimented. I also find that structure for me gives me the freedom that I want ironically because when I let myself go to free then I ended up not writing the book or not you know doing achieving the goals I want to achieve because I’ve gone a bit too to free with my time and just kind of let the day run away with me.

 

Penny Terndrup  

No, that’s Yeah. So. So what I hear when I say that when when I say the word structure probably isn’t what? I absolutely have structure. It just doesn’t. Yeah, if I don’t want to work. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I don’t work. That but yeah, i There were projects that I want to finish or there are there are clients that need need time. So right, yeah, so I think perhaps it’s control. There’s another word to get into conversation with but

 

Penny Terndrup  

control and purpose. So I do things that matter. And sometimes they matter less. I think I’m playing with words here. But

 

Anna Lundberg  

I think is the best time management hack there is to do the things that matter. It’s that simple. I’m, I’m a little going down that rabbit hole. Now in terms of books on there’s one called 168 hours, which is the number of hours you have in the week, there’s another called 4000 weeks, which is the average number of weeks we have in our life. And all these books should have questioning how we because we tend to want to just do more, work smarter, not harder, and push things into, you know, less time. And actually, I think it’s a lot bigger than that it’s shifting our mindset of what matters, it’s sometimes choosing to drop a ball on purpose. And you know, you know, if I’ve got a migraine, or if the kids are ill, or whatever, then I choose to be present with that, because there’s no point and whenever I have fought it and tried to do something, I make mistakes, the kids are unhappy or I’m you know, I get worse or whatever it is. So it comes with maybe with wisdom with age as part of it, and then experience and having the confidence to be able to do what you feel is right, and not what you feel you should be doing,

 

Penny Terndrup  

I suppose. And we’re back to the identity. Yeah, you’re clear about who you are in that context. Perhaps.

 

Anna Lundberg  

Any there are so many other threads, we could continue with it. I’m conscious of your time and everybody’s but I’d love to do a series of this. We can come back next week with our next installment. There’s so many things we hopefully can continue offline as it were. But where can we find you? I hope we can find you somewhere in the online space even if you’re not hanging

 

Penny Terndrup  

out there. So I don’t I’ll show you where I am. But my website is Penny terndrup.com. And what else should I give you? Yeah, find me there. LinkedIn. Amazing,

 

Anna Lundberg  

thank you Penny so much for time, so many insights and so many places my mind could have gotten so really appreciate that. I think there was something in it for, for many listeners, whether they are as we said content considering at that early stage of the fear and am I at that pivotal moment or as you say more in this undulating phase, which I love my favorite phrase and I’m gonna keep stealing that’s when that continues and those five careers maybe even so that’s an exciting time to think what’s what’s next. And just say, what’s your time say Penny? Thank you.

 

Penny Terndrup  

You’re welcome. Take care. Perfect, thank you so much.

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