Escaping the 9 to 5 with Jeremy Lovelace

This month’s Fearless Fridays interview is with Jeremy Lovelace, coming to us all the way from Rio. Having started as a freelance language teacher, Jeremy’s ambitions soon drew him to the financial services industry and to an opportunity in New York and Wall Street. To some extent, he had always known that he was more comfortable with the uncomfortable, doing things “off the beaten path”, but it was the 2008 crisis that gave him the push out of that life as an employee.

During his years in New York, Jeremy had become close with a retired McKinsey director, who proposed that he help on some projects in South America. Speaking both Spanish and Portuguese, and having long considered moving there, Jeremy jumped at the chance and so moved into the world of management consulting. It was this work that gave them a clear idea for the business he now runs as the Director of HFX Technologies, a software publisher for management training solutions.

Watch the full interview or read the transcript below for Jeremy’s insights on his journey.

Running a training business

Jeremy began after university as a freelance language teacher, moving into financial services, management consulting, and now working in software distribution with a focus on educational technology. He is now based between London, New York and Rio de Janeiro.

Visit him on his Website and LinkedIn.

1) At what moment did you decide it was time for a change?

Anna:               Okay. Hello, everybody, for this month’s Fearless Fridays. I’m here with Jeremy Lovelace all the way from Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. Jeremy, why don’t you start by telling us a little bit about how you started out after university and what you’ve ended up doing now?

Jeremy:            When I was at university in my last year, I decided that I wanted to learn Spanish. I threw myself at extracurricular Spanish classes, and I sort of evolved quite quickly into wanting to teach English as a foreign language in Spain straight out of the gate. As soon as I finished my bachelor’s degree, I went to Spain, and I qualified as English TEFL teacher doing the Cambridge qualification, and I worked in Spain for a year.

Then towards the end of that year, I think I got a little bit disenfranchised with the idea of being, really, a jobber. I was freelancing as an English teacher, and there wasn’t that much money in it. As much as I enjoyed the lifestyle, I was conscientious enough to think I owed it to myself and to my parents to go back to the UK and get a proper job.

I worked in the financial services industry for six years. That took me to New York where I was working on Wall Street. Then I lost my job in 2008 during the crisis. But in those three years, I’vI had become very close to a retired director of McKinsey consulting, and he asked me to help him with some projects that he had in Latin America. I’d already had the idea that I wanted to end up in Latin America largely, I think, because of my experience in Spain, and so I jumped on that chance. I came to Brazil 12 years ago. Under the guidance of the McKinsey chap, I evolved into management consulting. Then from there, I’ve evolved now into software distribution with a focus on educational technology. I’m now applying my trade under the brand of HFX Technologies, and yeah.

Anna:               Amazing. That all sounds very fluid and organic and fortuitous and perfectly, sort of everything fell into place. I guess What was it that made you so sure that you didn’t want to just have that kind of standard job, and how were you thinking about this? You went into the financial services, but I know you said that that wasn’t your life ambition. You were going in there more with the intention of learning things and so on that you could use to build a different kind of life. Tell me more about that kind of decision process and what you were thinking.

Jeremy:            Yeah. I think looking back, it was quite clear from when I was a teenager that I was a little bit eccentric and comfortable doing things off the beaten path. I guess that freelancer instinct was genetic. I always had that sense that I was going to end up doing stuff on my own, but the corporate thing, it wasn’t just a sense of obligation. I’m also simultaneously reasonably ambitious. I felt that finance, like getting my head around the financial services world would be a great stepping stone, teach me a lot about how the world of commerce works, and I think it did. I don’t know if that answers the question.

Anna:               Yeah. A little bit, I guess the next question is then what was it at that moment that when you’re done, I guess you said six years, and this guy came along and you had the idea already, was it just everything fell into place and it felt like, “Yeah, this is the right time, the right opportunity.” How did you make that decision to go, “Now I’ve got to take what I’ve learned and start [crosstalk 00:03:54].”

Jeremy:            It was funny. When I started in the derivatives business, I just think I felt quite quickly when I was broking. I thought it was a very exciting environment, and looking back, I think maybe I sat through rose-tinted specs because it was a great environment to work in for someone with my personality, but right very quickly when I was in London, I thought, “This is not going to be a career. It’s a young man’s game,” and so I wanted to milk it for all it’s worth, and I knew in the financial services world, there’s huge links with New York.

My division was opening an office in New York, and I pitched myself to the head of division saying, “I speak Spanish and Portuguese. Maybe I can help you monetize any relationships that we’d want to… whatever, develop relationships in Latin America,” but I was completely chancing it. I didn’t know what I was doing. I was still very inexperienced, but in that business, I think if people think you’re a character, they’ll give you a shot, and so they transferred me over.

But still, I think there was that same thing going on. I was working in the markets, and I enjoyed it, but I just had that sense, “This is just a stepping stone.” I met this guy from McKinsey. He very quickly… because he had these projects going in Latin America. He said, “Jeremy, it’d be great if you could come and help me,” because he knew I spoke the languages. I think he could tell that that was something I might be interested in.

But at that time I thought, “What would I be giving up? I’ve got really the golden ticket. I mean, a lot of people would kill for the job as a derivatives trader in Wall Street.” But then 2008 happened, and it was almost like, “Oh, damn. Damn. I lost my job in the market. I’m just going to have to go and work in Latin America.” It was, I guess… I don’t know. I sort of knew… Because of the Spanish experience, I just loved the Latin world, but then I love New York as well. I didn’t really to leave New York, but it just… I don’t know. It was a confluence of factors.

Anna:               That is interesting, I guess, through the lens of what’s happening this year, 2020, some parallels with 2008 and people being made redundant and so on. It’s always a mixed blessing. I do hear from people who wished for redundancy, almost. Of course, ahead of it happening, it’s not something we wish on anyone, but in a way, sometimes it can give us the push that we need. In your case, it was matched with a fantastic opportunity as well, so you were lucky there. It sounds like you’ve been very intentional about taking advantage of those opportunities, putting yourself forward and so on. Sounds like that was… everything falling into place. Do you think you would have-

Jeremy:            [crosstalk 00:06:36].

Anna:               Yeah. Well, there you go. We can all learn from that. I think we need to be a bit more shameless and selfish and pushing ourselves and backing ourselves. Do you reckon you would have… If that hadn’t happened, how long do you think you could have stayed there? Do you think you would’ve got to the point where you’ve gone, “No, I have to leave,” or would you have been quite comfortable in, “Hey, this is an amazing job in an amazing city, and it’s actually quite hard to let go of this.”

Jeremy:            No. I guess I’m a little bit… I think there’s an inevitability to opportunities coming up when you’re like me. Three years in one place is a long time for me. The psychic energy starts building up. You are looking, even if you’re looking subconsciously, and then you start to see things that you wouldn’t otherwise see. I think a lot of these things, like my philosophy is, is that the opportunities come when you’re ready for them. The universe works like that. If you want something and you have genuine calling, the doors start to open.

Anna:               I agree with that so much. It sounds a little bit almost sort of woo-woo as they say, but I think when you’ve gone through that internal process, you’ve decided, “Hey, this is what I want to do,” you do just begin to open your eyes to things, and things come along that you perhaps wouldn’t have seen otherwise because you weren’t looking for them. I think that’s hopefully reassuring to people who aren’t quite seeing the possibilities yet, but if you do decide and you commit to that, then the universe [crosstalk 00:08:08].

Jeremy:            Yeah, I mean, do you know what it is? I think, okay, thinking really practically. Now I’m an entrepreneur and I’m spending my own very painfully earned money on sub-contractors and freelancers to help me with my work, I know how important it is for me to work with people who have a sense of calling for what they do. I do not want to work for someone who’s just turning it in for a paycheck. I don’t care what they’re doing. They could be on $10 an hour working in Bangladesh or something. I want to know that they’re committed to their profession. I think that’s just true for everyone. If you’re not happy where you are, you have a duty to the market to find something that you’re going to be happy doing. I’m like an Adam Smith capitalist. I think the market rewards that.

2) What was the biggest challenge you faced in making the change?

Anna:               I guess that might mean 2008, thinking about it, it’s actually quite some time ago. What were the twists and turns since then? Have you had any challenges? I guess what have been the difficult decisions along the way? Have you ever been tempted back into full-time jobs? What’s been the process since then?

Jeremy:            I think the hardest thing is, is on a risk-adjusted basis, you make more money in corporate. In big corporate, you make more money. Unless you are a brilliant entrepreneurial technician and you’ve spotted a gap in the market and you’re going to pounce on it and capitalise it, generally speaking, you’re going to make less money doing this. I think the hardest thing is, is peer pressure. It’s like when you see people that you might think, “Well, I’ve got all the skills that they have. I’ve got the brains that they have,” and they’re living in like penthouses and big cities, and they’ve got that lifestyle, sometimes it makes you think, “Oh, what am I doing?” I think that is a challenge, but one of the blessings, I think, living in a living in a foreign country is that you are slightly isolated from peer pressure. I guess that hasn’t been such a problem for me.

I think the second challenge has been maturing away from… When I was young, I was just the lifestyle, but I just wanted to live… I just basically wanted to live on a beach. Let’s not muck around. That’s how it all started. But I think over time as I’ve matured commercially, I’ve realised how important it is not just to the people I work with, but also for my own satisfaction how important it is to become entrepreneurial and really think, “What does the market want?” Developing that takes work. I did an MBA, and that was an important part of growing up as well.

Anna:               There’s a bit of that shift of, “Hey, I want to be my own boss and live on a beach and travel and stuff,” to, “Actually, hang on a second. I’m an entrepreneur, and I’m validating the-”

Jeremy:            Yeah, I mean-

Anna:               “… product market fit and all these things.”

Jeremy:            Yeah. That mindset flies when you’re in your 20s, but when you’re in your 40s, it’s a little bit pizza pan.

Anna:               Well, I still know some people like that, but I like the idea, and I agree there is a shift, even on a smaller scale from when I quit my job, it was just me, what do I want and my lifestyle and so on whereas there is a bit of a business lens that comes on. “Yeah, but what do the clients want, and what’s the right process here?” and so on. There is definitely a shift that happens.

The financial piece is interesting. I mean, it’s an interesting to debate, I guess, where you own the most money and so on, and you can decide, “Hey, money isn’t important to me,” but then, as you say, when everyone around you has the snazzy car and the penthouse and all this stuff, it can get harder, so removing yourself from that situation, at least your comfortable bubble where everybody is in financial services and the can afford to buy the expensive bottle of champagne or wherever it is, it’s probably quite good idea, so [crosstalk 00:12:01].

Jeremy:            Yeah. It comes back to that thing as well of once you start spending your own money on service providers, do you want to spend your money on the service provider who’s doing their job because it allows them to work from the beach, or do you want to spend your money on the service provider that is doing it because they absolutely love what they’re doing? That’s a real corrective. I think I speak with authority on this because I’ve been that guy who’s like, “Well, I’m just living the dream,” but ultimately, your clients, they want to know, “He is in this for the distance. He’s in this because this is his calling. He’s got skin in the game, and this is his thing.”

Anna:               That’s a powerful perspective, and it’s interesting to think about it that way. I like to think both are possible, not the extreme bumming around on the beach four-hour workweek kind of thing, but I like to think that we can really have that mission but still have the work-life balance, the time for our family, the lifestyle that we want. How have you found that in terms of… I guess you wanted to live on the beach. Are you still able to live on the beach? You’re in Rio, so can you still reconcile those things?

Jeremy:            I don’t know if it’s appropriate for the interview, but am I living the dream? I get to work with my dog at my side, and that’s just weird, isn’t it?

Anna:               Absolutely.

Jeremy:            I think you can definitely… If you’re smart about it, you can do both. There’s that flexibility. It’s just being the captain of one’s own ship. I think you definitely work harder if you work on your own. There’s absolutely no doubt. You’re never off. Even on a weekend you’re working, you don’t really have holidays. It’s very hard to set any boundaries, and if you do set boundaries, you are aware that you’re sacrificing something every time you give yourself time off. I mean, there’s a whole art to doing that.

Anna:               I’m a massive fan of boundaries. I think it’s so important to set those. I know what you mean. It is challenging. Obviously, it depends on what your priorities are because if… especially when we were talking about if you’re a business, there’s a certain point when you’re really in that hustle phase. You need to get it off the ground, and you just have to put in the work. Unfortunately, then we need to compromise, but I think it’s important to bear in mind what the vision is because otherwise, why are we doing? It’s great that you’re passionate about the business idea, but I’d like to remind myself that actually initially I did want to maybe not live on the beach all the time, but at least not burn out, not just be working mindlessly-

Jeremy:            [crosstalk 00:14:32].

Anna:               … in meetings and stuff. The [inaudible 00:14:33], I know it’s not the dream really as we’re looking at alternatives, I think, [crosstalk 00:14:37].

Jeremy:            No, but it’s great. Lovely. Lovely, lovely [inaudible 00:14:39].

3) Where did you get the support you needed to make it happen?

Anna:               Yeah. Absolutely. Okay, so you mentioned getting away from your bubble, I guess, of people who are in New York and perhaps London too, and also, this McKinsey contact, who I think was instrumental in the process. Where else have you got support? Have you found peer groups? Have you worked with mentors? Where have you got the help? You did the MBA you mentioned as well. What else have you done to help yourself?

Jeremy:            Yeah, the MBA is very instrumental. It gave me a lot of confidence, and it taught me to rein it in. I think when I was in finance, I had this diluted idea that because I worked in finance, that means I understood everything. This arrogance, I think, comes work in the market. You think when you understand the stock market, what else is there to understand? I mean, it’s just nonsense. It’s absolute nonsense.

But doing an MBA was great because I think it reined me in a bit because it put me in the mix with the global peer group of very bright people, and it helped me to see, “Well, I’m clearly not good at this or that compared to my peers, but I’m clearly very good at this compared to them.” That gave me more confidence, I think, to do what I’m doing now because I basically serve as a tech distributor. I’m basically broking technology, and so I’ve always been… I’m a broker, not a developer. I think at one stage I thought I was such a genius, I could be a developer, but once you meet a couple of developers, you’re like, “No. You’re a salesman, Jeremy. Just suck it up and get selling.”

Anna:               Well, it’s good to know where your strengths are, where your zone of genius is, and then as you are doing, get the people around you to support you and fill in the gaps.

Jeremy:            The second thing though is regarding mentors, I think the biggest, the most instrumental influences have been clients. First, it was McKinsey, my McKinsey contact, but subsequently, the work that I’m doing now is an evolution of work that started as a consultant contract, two different contracts that gave me very strong sense of what type of business I should be pursuing and gave me a lot of focus.

One of those clients literally said, “Well, we want you to act as a distributor for us.” I thought, “Well, actually, this is a really good fit for me.” Clients are often the best mentors. If you’ve done a good job for a client, it’s good for them as well. They want to see you grow because your growth will result in their growth. Clients are good. I mean, I’ve had mentors outside of that, but I’d say my mentors/client relationships have been where it’s at.

Anna:               Amazing. In terms of, I guess, just learning what it takes to run your own business and so on, has that been a bit of trial and error? How have you worked out how to [crosstalk 00:17:20]-

Jeremy:            [crosstalk 00:17:20].

Anna:               …. together, yeah.

Jeremy:            I have not cracked the code. I’ve not cracked the code. I’m working on it all the time. I think the transition that I’m making and I’ve been making over the last three years is I think when you’re a consultant, a location-independent consultant that can play their trade from anywhere, you’re still thinking like a freelancer, but now I’m moving into this idea that I’m a distributor, it requires more investment. There’s more product development work that needs to get done. I’m making that transition from freelancing to entrepreneurship, and that’s very difficult. I think it’s a lifetime… You can always get better at it. I certainly haven’t cracked the code.

4) What’s the best part of your lifestyle today?

Anna:               But there is the important shift again. I mean, I work with a lot of freelancers who don’t even think of themselves as businesses, and I think that is an important step to make. Now, even if it is just you working with other freelance perhaps to help you, I think that is what’s going to help you set those boundaries and achieve what you actually want to achieve. Okay, so what about the best part? You’re living in Rio. You’re working with your dog. What else is there? You’re living the dream. What’s the best part of now your life and work as you’ve set it up for yourself at the moment [inaudible 00:18:26]?

Jeremy:            Well, I think from a work perspective, what I really like is the creative… I’d call it creative freedom. It’s sort of like being an artist. When you’re in a corporate world, that’s not your business. You’ve got to stay in your lane. You have a role, and you get paid for it. I don’t want to sound like I’m… I’m a not an entrepreneurial genius, but I’m an ideator. I have ideas, and I like to… I think I’m quite good at spotting the opportunities that come as a result of new relationships. I don’t like not being able to pursue them. What I really like is being able to… I’ve got a blank canvas, and I feel every day when I sit at my desk, there’s a blank canvas. I mean, obviously, there’s all the work that I’ve been doing up to that day, but I have that freedom to decide, and psychologically, that’s very important to me.

Another thing I really like about it is having skin in the game. Although I had share options when I worked in the brokerage firm, that’s not really the same. It’s like this is my baby, and I will live and die by its success, so that’s a good feeling.

Then from a lifestyle perspective, I’ve been very fortunate to have real geographic freedom for all of the last 12 years. When I was working with the McKinsey guy, the work took me between Brazil, the US, and the UK, and to a large extent, I’m still operating between those three countries, and that’s fantastic. Corona has put a real break on that. It’s caused me to ask very big questions about where I would live if travel gets very difficult for the longterm. For medium term, it would always be Rio, but in the very long-term, then you start to think, “Well, if you can’t see your friends and family, your home friends and family ever, like travelling becomes really difficult,” then I don’t know. I’d have to think about it.

Anna:               What does that mean? Where are your friends and family? Would you consider moving back to England? What are you thinking?

Jeremy:            Yeah, I mean, if it was really problematic travelling, if there’s two week quarantine getting into the UK, if that was a permanent feature, and we have to get tagged and checked in order to travel, I’m going to start to think, “Why don’t you just hold up in rural England and live your dream, Jeremy?”

Anna:               Dude, there are beaches there too.

Jeremy:            Well, it’s just because your parents… My mother’s still alive. There are other considerations, but I mean, certainly that would be a huge loss. I’m very invested in Brazil, but anyway.

Anna:               Well, let’s hope that’s not the case, hopefully, that it’ll turn around. I mean, it’s interesting because our generation hasn’t really had those restrictions. We haven’t been through the kind of World War that our grandparents went through. I think we’ve been so privileged that it is a bit of a shock when you suddenly can’t fly home or whatever that is. Hopefully, it’s a blip, and it will all get resolved, but it is an interesting-

Jeremy:            I think we should all go and live in-

Anna:               … thing to think about.

Jeremy:            … Sweden. [crosstalk 00:21:41].

Anna:               Well, funnily enough now, Sweden and Italy, which were causing all these problems initially, a few countries that aren’t on the list, at least as we’re recording this interview, so definitely. I’m tempted by Sweden too. If I had to stay somewhere, I think that might be it, but I have to get my boyfriend to learn Swedish, which is not going so well right now [inaudible 00:21:57] opportunity there.

I think we’ve already sort of… We can pull out some insights already from what you’ve shared, but what advice would you give to someone who perhaps like you was never quite comfortable in the corporate machine and also specifically maybe has this perhaps a little bit naive dream of living by the beach. What advice would you give them to take that dream and make it a reality as you have done?

5) What one piece of advice would you give to someone who is considering making a big career or lifestyle change?

Jeremy:            Yeah, I mean, so my advice is don’t do it. If you’ve got any real gifting in the corporate realm, just stick with it. The people who I know who are most successful, with a couple of exceptions, are people who are very good at the corporate game. They know how to play corporate life. They’re very good politically. They know how to rein it. They’re ambitious… There’s some people who are going to play the ladder, and they’re going to play well, and they win. If you are ambitious, and you’re materially ambitious as well, and you’ve got any gifting there, stick with it.

I look at people like that, and I’m like, “Awesome. Awesome.” I respect that so much because it’s not something I… I’m not built for that sort of thing, but I respect it when I see it, a lot. My advice is always conservative. If you are good at corporate stick with it, and if you are going to leave, consider the cost. If you are going to leave, stick very close to what you know. If you’re working in marketing, you’re looking at marketing consultants, if you’re working in… Staying close to your industry, staying close to your functional area, that’s going to help, and to the extent that you move away from those and you move away from your natural industrial peer group, get qualified. Do whatever qualifications you need to do. For me, doing an MBA was, in retrospect, it was essential. It doesn’t have to be an MBA, but it’s qualifying, educating yourself that grows your confidence, and it improves your branding as well. It’s just good. I believe in paid investing in yourself. Invest in your [inaudible 00:24:15].

Anna:               I love that. It’s very real and pragmatic and responsible advice, I guess. First of all, as you said, there are people-

Jeremy:            Because I’m so irresponsible.

Anna:               Yes. You’re trying to see the other sides of it. No. But I think that was good. There are people, as you say, you see them… The reason I left probably was I looked at those people, and I thought, “That’s not me,” people who are… certainly, where I was at Proctor & Gamble, [inaudible 00:24:37] as they say, and some people are there 30, 40 years, and you look up and you don’t see yourself in those. I certainly, wasn’t very good at playing the political game. That wasn’t for me, but there are people who liked that, but I would suggest that those people probably aren’t considering leaving, probably never will, so if they’re doing that well and enjoying it, and they’re happy doing that-

Jeremy:            My McKinsey… This is a great… I love this anecdote. He told me that when he joined McKinsey, he kept a list of everyone in his graduate intake. He kept a handwritten list, and every time they left, he crossed the name up until he was the last one left.

Anna:               What did he learn from that exercise?

Jeremy:            [inaudible 00:25:13] I mean, that’s the mindset of someone who gets to the top of an organisation like McKinsey. They’re in it to win it.

Anna:               Oh, I see, so he really was eliminating the competition and, “I’m going to stick with it longer than everyone else,” that kind of mindset.

Jeremy:            Yeah. Yeah. I respect it because that sort of mindset will help you as… in entrepreneurship as well. I mean, brutally, brutally, if you want to do well, like if you want to do materially well in business, you’re playing in a competitive ecosystem, but there’s a lot of space to have lifestyle businesses within… the world’s a big place, but if you want to make more money and you start wanting to grow your business, you start heading the bumpers, and then your competitors realise that you’re on the landscape, and they start manoeuvring to… Then it all ends up being the same thing. There’s no free ride. I guess it comes to this is there’s no easy way out of corporate success. You can work on your own in a lifestyle business, and that’s fine, but the more ambitious you are, it ends up trending towards the same thing, the same mindset that would take you to the top of Procter & Gamble would be the same mindset of being a very, very successful entrepreneur.

Really, I think that’s ultimately it. I can speak to this because I’ve always been this lifestyle person, but equally, I’ve worked in finance, I’ve got the MBA so I can see very clearly what it takes, what the… because I feel that difference. I felt it, and I’m growing into what I need to in order to succeed. I think the world channels this in one direction. A bit bleak.

Anna:               No. Not bleak at all, but it does make me think. I think there is that evolution. Again, I’ve gone through it too. I think initially when my clients and I, when we leave our jobs, we’re more in that lifestyle-y space. We just want a bit of freedom and flexibility and do meaningful work. That’s important because it’s sort of a reaction against the restriction and the money and so on of the corporate world, but then as you said, there probably will come a time when we mature, and certainly, that’s happened to me that the last few years. Initially, it was I want to be a nomad and carefree, I don’t want a team because I don’t want anyone else relying on my income [inaudible 00:27:44] whereas now I begin to see the benefit.

I’d like to have a videographer. I’d like to have other people supporting me in these things. I’d like to grow it. I see people wanting to maybe have an office and maybe take it further. We are ambitious, smart, competent people, so probably that same mindset, as you said, that we have in corporate is going to be something we apply, even if we start out with this kind of quite nice, easygoing lifestyle business. We might find ourselves very quickly getting quite ambitious [crosstalk 00:28:09].

Jeremy:            Because the mindset that whatever it was that got you into the doors of Proctor & Gamble, they’re seeing that thing. I think I know a little bit about your academic background and your commercial background. None of that happens if you are not at least a little bit ambitious. You can get to some sort of burnout with that, but once you’ve recovered from your burnout, then that same ambition, I think, I think it’s hardwired, and eventually it kicks in again, and you’re like, “No, actually, it’s time to start cranking again.” Then you burn out again and have a [crosstalk 00:28:54].

Anna:               No, no, no. But that’s so important. What I like about your story is I feel that you are very intentional about taking the work and then crafting the business and so on. If you choose now to drive your ambition a certain direction, I think that’s… and same for me, but I’d still like to think, again, boundaries, and I guess having the awareness, not getting to that point where perhaps you burned out before and making sure that the clients I’m working with, exactly as you said, have a mission. You share their values and so on. There’s still a huge shift versus just doing the hamster wheel conveyor belt kind of thing and having the creative freedom that you said and working with people who come alive with the work that you’re doing and so on.

I think there’s still a difference, even if it can run out of control maybe, but I think it’s important to remind yourself. I always talk about defining success, and that definition can and will evolve over time. By all means, if success becomes for you, again, becoming a bit more competitive and climbing to the top of the entrepreneurial, competing with the likes of Elon Musk, by all means if that’s the direction that you want to go, but to reassure you all out there, it’s very possible still to have this nice lifestyle business to earn enough to be comfortable, to still have time with your family and so on. It’s really about what you want and just being aware, I think, being intentional about it so it doesn’t happen by mistake, and as you said before, you’ve recreated the cage that you were in before, just that this time you’ve created it yourself and thrown away the key. I think that’s an important reminder.

Jeremy:            Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a balance that must be found. You will find your set point.

Anna:               Well, amazing. I think that’s some really new insights there that we haven’t really covered in other interviews, so thank you so much for that perspective. Maybe as such an eccentric entrepreneurial type as yourself, it was a different view than we might usually have. Where can people connect with you and read more about what you’re up to in your business these days?

Jeremy:            The best place is the hfxtraining.com blog or resource hub or my LinkedIn profile, jeremylovelace1.

Anna:               Perfect. One, the one and only, and we’ll make sure to link to those as well so that people can click to you directly.

Jeremy:            Super. [crosstalk 00:31:07].

Anna:               Thank you so much, Jeremy, for taking time to talk to us. I loved the perspective you shared [inaudible 00:31:11], thank you, thank you so much.

Jeremy:            Awesome. Take care. Have a great weekend, Anna.

Anna:               Thank you. You too.

Jeremy:            Bye.

Anna:               Perfect.